tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post9107864453481544175..comments2024-03-20T11:09:50.796+00:00Comments on voiceforchildren: "Bewilderment?"voiceforchildrenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16825129148579102037noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-61670091879794608512010-09-12T17:31:56.465+01:002010-09-12T17:31:56.465+01:00"The furnace was in the other wing and the ar..."The furnace was in the other wing and the archaeologists were of the view that the teeth and bones were there until they had to be moved as a new heating system was being installed. They were then moved to the cellar area and deliberately buried."<br /><br />Do we know what year the new heating system was installed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-50313417774116181742010-09-11T10:48:53.249+01:002010-09-11T10:48:53.249+01:00@Lorna, "As you probably know, the investigat...@Lorna, "As you probably know, the investigation is very far from over!"<br /><br />No, I didn't know that but I am glad to hear it. The police will have to do a lot of work to restore the reputation that was damaged by Warcup and Gradwell.Rob Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019654918054950571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-40483060946114745422010-09-11T09:31:12.674+01:002010-09-11T09:31:12.674+01:00VFC,
Very well planned by TLS.
To be releasing T...VFC,<br /><br />Very well planned by TLS.<br /><br />To be releasing The Napier Report, just intime for the first States Sitting.<br /><br />More important things on the agenda, therefore Napier can be pushed aside.<br /><br />Lets hope Deputy Bob Hill and <br />others put a stop to his plan.<br /><br />Do you agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-44099654693212055982010-09-10T23:06:23.347+01:002010-09-10T23:06:23.347+01:00Rob. I was interested in the questions you put to ...Rob. I was interested in the questions you put to Lenny Harper about his part of the investigation.<br /><br />As you probably know, the investigation is very far from over!<br /><br />LornaProud Survivornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-609225967899760182010-09-10T23:05:50.944+01:002010-09-10T23:05:50.944+01:00Rob. I was interested in the questions you put to ...Rob. I was interested in the questions you put to Lenny Harper about his part of the investigation.<br /><br />As you probably know, the investigation is very far from over!<br /><br />LornaProud Survivornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-65385394329605451402010-09-10T18:39:07.938+01:002010-09-10T18:39:07.938+01:00Lenny, I have a couple of questions which I hope y...Lenny, I have a couple of questions which I hope you can answer.<br /><br />1. About half a dozen people have currently been charged in relation to the HdlG investigation. Given the state of the evidence that your team had gathered up until the time you left, how many accused do you think there was sufficient evidence to at least charge and bring to court? Leaving aside the AG's office for the moment and basing it on your experience with the CPS in the UK. I mean, strong evidence from multiple accusers where you thought there was a good chance of conviction under normal circumstances. (Without breaching confidence or implicating anyone). Would it have been another 10, 20, 30?<br /><br />2. Assuming you had not retired and Graham Power had not been suspended, how would the investigation have developed? Would it have have extended outwards to look beyond the wardens and 'inner circle' who have currently been charged? I mean, would you have investigated the reports we have all heard of a possible paedophile ring (or rings) involving the Sea Cadets, HdlG, and visitors to the home? Would you have also investigated whether people were culpable for not uncovering the abuse earlier, such as administrators, police, politicians etc? Was this bigger circle already in your sights, with enough evidence to further investigate or was it deemed unlikely that anything like that could have ever been proven anyway?Rob Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019654918054950571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-82090976652873451182010-09-10T18:26:03.391+01:002010-09-10T18:26:03.391+01:00@Damocles , 7 September 2010 19:57
Totally agree ...@Damocles , 7 September 2010 19:57<br /><br />Totally agree with you. <br /><br />Also, I don't think Lenny and his team were responsible for the ghoulish hysteria.<br /><br />If the investigation had been allowed to reach a natural conclusion, these questions may have been answered - maybe not.Rob Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019654918054950571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-59181952092198155942010-09-10T10:48:57.458+01:002010-09-10T10:48:57.458+01:00Lenny.
My point was solely to emphasise that fore...Lenny.<br /><br />My point was solely to emphasise that forensic science etc., as they are in reality are nowhere near as definitive at coming up with answers as they are perceived to be in Midsomer Murders, Bergerac or CSI.<br /><br />Based upon what we know - even just that reported in the local media - any empirical analyst at the time should have considered the possibility that the hard evidence did not rule out homicide/concealed accident/manslaughter and so these possibilities HAD to be excluded.<br /><br />The braying Jersey idiots, many of whom are articulate - even educated - somehow "knew" all along that these scenarios were impossible, because, they believe, things like that don't happen here. Obviously, as they now claim to have said all along, it was a complete waste of time and our money to investigate whether these lurid "fantasies" had any substance. <br /><br />Unfortunately there is a vocal, and apparently quite large, section of Jersey that indulges in over-confident hindsight. No doubt they rewrite the memories in their heads that originally said they had doubts.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-84125775107287517552010-09-08T23:12:38.900+01:002010-09-08T23:12:38.900+01:00Damocles:
You are of course correct in saying that...Damocles:<br />You are of course correct in saying that the children may have died of illness in the 18th century, just as Lorna is correct in saying that the remains of the children were buried there and the forensic archaeologist's expert view was that someone deliberately tried to bury and conceal them in the late 1960's early 70's. The 18th century theory does not really explain why that might be the case. In truth we don't know, and Lorna is correct, as many open media sources will confirm, that I (contrary to the untrue assertion by Gradwell and the sensitive Mr Warcup)never at any time said children had been murdered at the home. Just one other thing, to say that the cadaver dogs were not as useful as imagined is to misunderstand their role. They were never there to give us any answers, but merely to indicate if there was anything that needed investigation, in other words, to ask questions but not give answers. In that respect they were brilliant. It was not their fault we were unable to come up with those answers. Lenny HarperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-70037511057742881482010-09-08T19:56:38.687+01:002010-09-08T19:56:38.687+01:00Yes very Curious. A Senior Civil Servant at the Ed...Yes very Curious. A Senior Civil Servant at the Education Department is a suspect in a Child Abuse Investigation, doesn't get suspended and doesn't get prosecuted. On the other hand our most Senior Police Officer has a couple of "disputed" allegations of poor management written by a man who stands to gain from writing them and the Chief Police Officer is suspended, with little or no regard to due process. And a Home Affairs Minister that believes in tooth fairys.voiceforchildrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16825129148579102037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-25238219811759069032010-09-08T17:49:51.221+01:002010-09-08T17:49:51.221+01:00I dont know if it is only me but I get the distinc...I dont know if it is only me but I get the distinct impression that sexual abuse in Jersey is considered to occur only amongst those on council estates unemployed smokers etc yet the most reported cases I read about in the post is quite different being people in position of authority yet those are the ones where there is never enough evidence to proceed? I wonder is there any data to compare?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-16111989509361996362010-09-08T17:38:30.013+01:002010-09-08T17:38:30.013+01:00So surely the blaitent disposing of the bath and ...So surely the blaitent disposing of the bath and the blaitent denial of the cellars by Warcup & Co, is evident enough. <br /><br />That blaitent lying was and is evident?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-54793346377022147442010-09-08T17:12:27.091+01:002010-09-08T17:12:27.091+01:00Here is a comment left by former SIO Lenny Harper ...Here is a comment left by former SIO Lenny Harper from an earlier <a href="http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2010/04/deep-questions-remain.html" rel="nofollow">posting</a> which is just as relevant to this one.<br /><br />"Let me make it clear for all. There was a bath down there, and we had allegations concerning it, including rape and forced abortion. The dogs reacted in the area of the bath and inside it. Bedfordshire Police forensic experts tested it for blood and the tests were positive, yet Warcup and Gradwell said it was not blood. The victims did NOT make it up. Out of the several hundred who came forward we felt that 3 or 4 were perhaps not telling the truth. they were easy to spot. The furnace was in the other wing and the archaeologists were of the view that the teeth and bones were there until they had to be moved as a new heating system was being installed. They were then moved to the cellar area and deliberately buried. This was the view of the forensic archaeologist, not mine. His evidence is hard to argue with and no one has ever come up with an alternative. Let me say once again. The victims were telling the truth. My colleagues and I had many years experience in sorting truth from lies. It was not the victims who were lying. What Gradwell and Warcup (despite his later plea of non involvement in the row between Gradwell and myself) were saying, without any doubt, is that the victims were telling lies and that we were taken in. This is rubbish. There were terrible crimes committed down there, at the very least, indecent assaults and rapes. We will perhaps never know if there was worse. What we do know is that there were the remains of children there, no adults, just children, and that these remains had been burnt and deliberately concealed. Why? Why also would certain Jersey politicians and law officers try and deny that in the desperate and dishonest manner we have seen? Why did Frank Walker, Andrew Lewis, and Diane Simon remain silent when they knew that Warcup and Gradwell were at best mistaken when they said that it was not possible for an adult to stand up in the cellars? Why did they tell the Met that we searched HDLG on the word of a few unreliable disturbed people with criminal records. The public in Jersey now have to make their mind up. I hope Stuart Syvret and Bob Hill (when he does stand again) are returned with huge majorities. Lenny Harper"voiceforchildrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16825129148579102037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-25785255405308890002010-09-08T14:00:02.569+01:002010-09-08T14:00:02.569+01:00Yes Lorna, I do believe that there is a possibilit...Yes Lorna, I do believe that there is a possibility that a few children died there accidentally and their deaths were concealed - but that is only a working hypothesis. If true, they may have died of sickness or whatever in the 18th century.<br /><br />As Stuart said previously, radioactive analysis of the teeth/bones could have given a rough date range after which they could not have been buried depending on whether "unnatural" radio-isotopes were present or not from the 50's nuclear weapons tests.<br /><br />That is what is maddening about the evidence that we know about - it is just too inconclusive to prove anything. The forensic science/corpse finding dogs etc that have been applied so far seem nowhere near as useful as they appear in the popular imagination.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-85260857810915072912010-09-08T09:12:57.836+01:002010-09-08T09:12:57.836+01:00I agree Damocles that the "murder" theor...I agree Damocles that the "murder" theory was allowed to deflect from the very real abuse that went on in HDLG. I have never thought that children were murdered in there and neither did Lenny Harper say so. I do however believe that deaths of children may have been concealed in there and that is something altogether different. It may be that children died accidentally as a result of abuse or by suicide on the premises or in the grounds. These deaths had to be concealed from the authorities.<br /><br /><br />It may be that these children died of natural causes many decades ago but of one thing I am sure - children did die in there.<br /><br />LornaProud Survivornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-65370217594186940462010-09-08T00:21:12.150+01:002010-09-08T00:21:12.150+01:00The bath and the cellars are part of the narrative...The bath and the cellars are part of the narrative about sustained abuse at HDLG. I believe that happened so I don't have to "explain" anything about this. Any abuse in the bath/cellars in no way backs up multiple murder/manslaughter/incineration.<br /><br />Unfortunately those in power, embarrassed by what was revealed, chose to attempt to defuse virtually everything as some sort of ghastly "spin" exercise to minimise what they saw as the potential damage to Jersey (a.k.a. those individuals in charge at the time and later on).<br /><br />I am almost certain that there must have been a lot of abuse there - why wouldn't there have been any? There was plenty at other children's homes in that era - maybe even all of them - so it is almost necessary to prove that there was no abuse there to completely clear the name of HDLG... but the Jersey Courts have already convicted a few, so something happened there for sure.<br /><br />It is the narrative of recent murder/incineration of numbers of victims that REALLY doesn't have enough hard evidence to be sustained and I am just pointing out a few of the many logical holes in this semi-paranoid storyline.<br /><br />What obviously happened at HDLG was bad enough - blowing up the story using conspiracy theory thinking into some demonic Hollywood Saw 8 movie is only playing into the hands of those who would like to believe that there was nothing at all that happened.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-64167380062511043952010-09-07T19:57:30.506+01:002010-09-07T19:57:30.506+01:00Damocles.
What is your explaination for the remov...Damocles.<br /><br />What is your explaination for the removal of the the concrete bath and the deperate denial of the cellars ever being cellars?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-86894997104747234522010-09-07T17:19:17.591+01:002010-09-07T17:19:17.591+01:00"People do collect children's teeth you k..."People do collect children's teeth you know. I know of one prominent person who has collected all the teeth his children have shed."<br /><br />Yes Damocles. Loving parents collect children's teeth and I have even heard of people making necklaces out of them. My children are all in their 30's and I still have some of their milk teeth that were left out for the tooth fairy. In the 60's when children were taken to the dentist from HDLG they would be taken into town by a random member of staff either on the bus or by car. I don't think anyone cared enough to ask for the teeth and I don't ever remember the tooth fairy visiting the home -sorry Mr Warcup.<br /><br />I can't think of any reason why teeth would be collected or by whom. Perhaps we all need to be patient wait until we finally get some proper forensic conclusions.<br /><br />LornaProud Survivornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-46460406996685382512010-09-07T12:13:11.845+01:002010-09-07T12:13:11.845+01:00Anonymous said on 6 September 2010 22:08
&quo...Anonymous said on 6 September 2010 22:08<br /><br /> <i>"Sorry to disagree Damocles, but if you look at what Lenny Harper and the expert said it was "some of the teeth could not have been shed naturally whilst the child was alive." Furthermore it was established that no teeth were ever removed by extraction by dentist at the home. The children were taken elsewhere. The Archaeologist also said quite clearly the teeth were moved from the other wing and "a deliberate attempt made to hide them by covering them up." That needs no embellishing."</i><br /> <br />You are putting two and two together and making 22.<br /><br /><b>"some of the teeth could not have been shed naturally whilst the child was alive."</b><br /><br />Please think. Forcible extraction is not being shed naturally. While a child is alive, naturally shed teeth will not have root attached - forcibly extracted teeth might. This statement also rubs in that - <b>some of the teeth</b> - HAD been shed naturally, which must beg the question as to why the putative murderer/disposer of the bodies would have collected naturally shed milk teeth - which naturally would have been shed over many months/years from the probable two individuals - and put them together with the bodies for disposal. It simply does not make sense.<br /><br /><b>"no teeth were ever removed by extraction by dentist at the home."</b><br /><br />Err - so what? If there was a "tooth collector" at HDLG then any extracted teeth may have been requested to have been returned. People do collect children's teeth you know. I know of one prominent person who has collected all the teeth his children have shed.<br /><br /><b>"That needs no embellishing"</b> No, but it does need any cherrypicking of the quote and context analysed. What you say the archaeologist said is prone to misinterpretation - have you got a link to the original quote?<br /><br />As far as I recall, the "archaeologist" stated that the MATERIAL in which the teeth were found - the soil and debris of which there was a lot to be sifted through - had been moved at some point. The closely associated location of the teeth and the bones may just have been an unconnected coincidence.<br /><br />As far as I can recollect, the partial "female child's femur" was never definitively established as that, nor was the age of the bones established either. It is known that the whole excavation at HDLG unearthed large quantities of animal bones. If one finds a bone that looks like a small human bone at a potential murder scene, then one has to remember that animal bones are very similar to human. Perhaps, in view of the press reporting, forensic analysis should have been done on these bones to establish 1)species and then, if human, 2)how long they had been buried.<br /><br />My final feeling about the bones/teeth is that the evidence we have seen shows that corpse dogs etc, forensic archaeologists, and the comments that they make, are not initially rigorous and they are prone to "2+2=22". Perhaps the investigating team and the various amateur detectives had too much faith in initial remarks.<br /><br />The problem is that I think that the "working hypotheses" that the various experts had (whilst excavations were under way) were "Chinese whispered" into reality by a media hungry for sensation.<br /><br />When doing work like this, experts have to hold all possibilities and explanations of the facts in their minds without ruling anything out until the facts (all the facts)can shine a light on what really happened. The plain truth is that in "cold case" investigations like this, often there is insufficient reliable information ever unearthed to definitively establish what really happened. One can suspect that some scenario happened but it can often never be proved unfortunately.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-64185526849429709772010-09-06T22:08:52.642+01:002010-09-06T22:08:52.642+01:00Sorry to disagree Damocles, but if you look at wha...Sorry to disagree Damocles, but if you look at what Lenny Harper and the expert said it was "some of the teeth could not have been shed naturally whilst the child was alive." Furthermore it was established that no teeth were ever removed by extraction by dentist at the home. The children were taken elsewhere. The Archaeologist also said quite clearly the teeth were moved from the other wing and "a deliberate attempt made to hide them by covering them up." That needs no embellishing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-33578904647364221262010-09-06T16:40:23.182+01:002010-09-06T16:40:23.182+01:00Raised awareness of child abuse issues in Portugal...Raised awareness of child abuse issues in Portugal <br />Sep 06, 2010 09:55 AM <br />A mammoth child sex abuse trial in Portugal, ongoing for more than five years, is about to come to an end when judges shortly announce their verdict. Seven defendants face over 800 charges linked the running of a paedophile ring in a state-run children’s home in Lisbon. <br /><br />A mammoth child sex abuse trial in Portugal, ongoing for more than five years, is about to come to an end when judges shortly announce their verdict. Seven defendants face over 800 charges linked to the running of a paedophile ring in a state-run children’s home in Lisbon.<br /><br />The case has been high profile from the start, with a former TV presenter and a former ambassador among the 7 people accused of abusing boys in state care. Social workers and psychologists estimate that more than 100 children were sexually abused in the Casa Pia, a state-run network of children’s homes founded in 1870. The homes are responsible for looking after more than 4,000 orphans and special needs children, including the deaf and blind, as well as children whose families are unable to care for them.<br /><br />Incidents of abuse were reported to officials as far back as two decades ago, but nothing was done by the authorities. It took a journalist’s article in the ‘Expresso’ newspaper in 2002 for police to start serious investigations.<br /><br />During the trial, 32 alleged victims ranging in age between 16 and 22 have given chilling accounts of being raped by adults in dark cellars, cars and secluded houses. Almost all of the young victims identified their abusers by pointing to the men across the courtroom. One of the accused is a former driver at Casa Pia, who claims he was also abused when he lived at the home as a child. The driver has admitted to more than 600 crimes and incriminated the other defendants. If convicted, they could be jailed for up to 25 years.<br /><br />Insular and traditional as a country, the uncovering of such large-scale abuse shocked Portugal when the story first broke in 2002. Since then the trial has gripped the nation, with much coverage from the media. Such a spotlight is believed to have changed attitudes. There is now much more pressure on authorities to investigate and respond to abuse allegations.<br /><br />The president of an association set up by psychologists to help prevent child abuse believes that little by little, there is “greater openness form the public, schools and parents” about the issues involved. And victim support organisations receive more calls for help from abused children and adults.<br /><br />Some doubt whether the sentences passed by the judges will be adequate to do justice to the heinous crimes committed. But whatever the verdicts in this particular trial, the media circus around the case has already done immeasurable good, if it has helped change attitudes in society and encouraged people to come forward who might otherwise have remained silent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-90559940946455755742010-09-06T13:47:12.909+01:002010-09-06T13:47:12.909+01:00VFC - I think that everyone must agree that ILM...VFC - I think that everyone must agree that ILM's comment about floorboard cracks was ill advised.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-43537642572139681152010-09-06T12:55:55.485+01:002010-09-06T12:55:55.485+01:00I am sure there are plenty of "plausible"...I am sure there are plenty of "plausible" explanations as to how those teeth got there. But Senator Ian Le Marquand's explanation of them falling out of childrens mouths and dropping through the very same gap in a floor-board is not one of them.voiceforchildrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16825129148579102037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-17496225039227647302010-09-06T09:07:51.387+01:002010-09-06T09:07:51.387+01:00I definitely read about or heard someone mention o...I definitely read about or heard someone mention on air about jawbone being attached to some teeth but I can't recall where or when. I don't make things up Damocles although I know that all I read is not accurate!<br /><br />Don't forget that these teeth and bone fragments were reported to have been burned and moved. If this is true then your jar of shed and extracted teeth theory falls down a bit.<br /><br />LornaProud Survivornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591695769525894359.post-64661400176221010192010-09-06T00:01:28.617+01:002010-09-06T00:01:28.617+01:00Anonymous said:
the expert said they could not ha...Anonymous said:<br /><br /><i>the expert said they could not have been extracted whilst the child was still alive because of the amount of root on the tooth. End of story.</i><br /><br />Not end of story. Keep it real please. The expert did not say this. Check back on Stuart's blog where Lenny Harper posts on this. The expert said that some (a few) of the teeth could not have been shed naturally because they had root attached. That implies that most of the teeth did not have root attached, therefore were almost certainly shed naturally. If the few with root remaining were removed by the visiting dentist that counts as not being "naturally" shed.<br /><br />The narrative you seem to be putting forward is that multiple children were killed and burned and all that was left is their teeth. The expert anon mentioned did not say that the majority of teeth were unnaturally shed, nor did they say that the teeth all showed signs of incineration as they would have done if entire bodies were burned. It's of no help if you "think" like a 9/11 truther or a grassy knoll Kennedy conspiracy theorist.<br /><br />Don't make up fanciful stuff to support your ideas, anon, it only gives ammunition to the cover up merchants.<br /><br />Lorna, I have no recollection of the teeth being described as having jawbone attached (and I have pretty good recollection, plus I can use a search engine). If you classify milk tooth root as jawbone then be aware that, when extracted by a dentist, milk teeth will have root/"jawbone" attached.Damoclesnoreply@blogger.com