Thursday, 22 April 2010

"Deep" questions remain.



On the 12th November 2008 Mick Gradwell and acting Chief Police Officer David Warcup issued a press release, which was re-produced on VFP .

The said Press Release was mentioned by Chief Police Officer Graham Power in his letter to PPC, not that the Chairman of PPC Constable Juliette Gallichan told her Committee anything about the letter, indeed the first some PPC members heard of the letter was when they read it here on VFC. and the reply he got HERE. CPO Power, among other things, had this to say about the Gradwell and Warcup Press Release. “The media script was then subjected to significant changes (I believe that “sexed up” is a popular term used to describe this type of process)”

Sometimes it is important to note what ISN’T in a Press Release just as much as what IS in it. Acting Chief Police Officer David Warcup and Mick Gradwell, when referring to the “Cellars” or “Voids” had this to say about them.

The Cellars.
"These are floor voids. They are not cellars, and it is impossible for a grown person to stand up straight in the floor voids under Haut de la Garenne."

Home Affairs Minister, Senator Ian Le Marquand, in an answer to an oral question on Tuesday 20th April 2010 from Deputy Bob Hill, said the Cellars/Voids were 1.4 metres deep, because that’s what he has been told, presumably by David Warcup. The Senator added that he believes they could get deeper as a building slopes (or words to that effect) but he wasn’t told that by David Warcup and it wasn’t in the press release.
Also during questions on the same day Senator Le Marquand told us that THIRTY alleged victims had claimed to have been abused in these Cellars/Voids, (which wasn’t in the press release) yes that is THIRTY! Were those THIRTY claims dismissed because in the words of Mick Gradwell and David Warcup “it is impossible for a grown person to stand up straight in the floor voids under Haut de la Garenne.”?

Or were the Cellars/Voids just that little bit deeper than 1.4 metres (4”7 and a half inches)??????????? Even if they were only 1.4 metres would that stop a child abuser committing his/her crimes down there?


39 comments:

  1. E-mail from Deputy Hill to all States Members and Media.

    Dear Colleagues,

    You will recall that on Tuesday I asked the Home Affairs Minister what the depth was of the deepest void/cellar at Haut de la Garenne and how many allegations of abuse in that area had been received. The reason for the question was because it had been claimed by the Acting Chief Police Officer that there were no cellars but only voids. This could imply that no abuse could have taken place under the floor boards and those claiming to have been abused were misguided. Also the States Police should not have wasted any time investigating the allegations.

    It seems almost unbelievable that the police and forensic experts would have spent thousands of pounds and countless man hours investigating large areas under Haut de la Garenne unless there was sufficient evidence in the first place, yet all that time and expense can be dismissed by an officer whose claim has never been questioned. According to the Home Affairs Minister it now appears that some of the voids could be almost 5 feet deep and 30 former residents have made allegations of abuse in the voids.

    As mentioned in the States on Tuesday I visited HDLG last week and measured and photographed the underfloor areas. It is correct to state there are some areas which are around 3 feet deep, however as one moves further down the building the areas do get much deeper and as the Home Affairs Minister stated on Tuesday some are at least 1.4 metres deep. As one can see from this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq6X8QAtkog that one (void?) is around 7 feet deep.

    If some of the areas under HDLG are as deep as 7 feet and 30 victims have alleged that they were abused down there, it would be interesting to know how the claim that there are no cellars but only voids under HDLG was so readily accepted by the former Chief Minister and Home Affairs Minister who apparently visited the under floor areas and also witnessed investigatory work being under taken. They of course along with the Acting Police Chief all played a part in the suspension of Graham Power.

    One should also note that over £3.7 million pounds has spent on the historic abuse investigation since the retirement of Mr Harper, plus near on a million pounds to cover the suspension of Mr Power yet no one at the Chief Minister's Department or at Home Affairs seems to be concerned.

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  2. VFC

    There was a bath in the cellar, or was it else where?

    Or are they saying that there was never a bath?

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  3. Anonymous.

    I believe there was a bath down there, and as far as I've been told, it was tiled.

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  4. Why would you have a bath in a void?

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  5. This is a bit sad isn't it?

    Voids or Cellars who cares?

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  6. "This is a bit sad isn't it?

    Voids or Cellars who cares?"

    In answer to your question I would guess that would be Mick Gradwell and David Warcup. It was them that felt the need to differentiate the two in their Press Release.

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  7. "This is a bit sad isn't it?

    Voids or Cellars who cares?"

    30 alleged victims you idiot thats who.

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  8. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9IdmkQCh1_8/S9CLoypJ8vI/AAAAAAAAAQM/5z2RGTg35Ts/s400/jersey10v.jpg

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  9. The above link doesn't appear to work, see if this helps and thanks to the poster who left it.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9IdmkQCh1_8/S9CLoypJ8vI/AAAAAAAAAQM/5z2RGTg35Ts/s400/jersey10v.jpg

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  10. Did the 30 victims make their claims seperately,in other words no collusion, so the possibility that these claims if that is the case are true.

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  11. "Did the 30 victims make their claims seperately,in other words no collusion, so the possibility that these claims if that is the case are true."

    The insinuation that 30 people would hatch an evil plan to make up a story of how they were abused as children in a celler.

    Very likely, NOT!

    And stop calling them ALLEGED victims. The behaviour of the Jersey government in trying to cover up the whole mess has condemned them already.

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  12. Anonymous wrote "Did the 30 victims make their claims separately,in other words no collusion, so the possibility that these claims if that is the case are true."

    All these victims would have been interviewed separately by the police. Evidence would have been checked out and every victim would have a different story. Other witnesses would have coroborated what they said. The police are good at sniffing out collusion.

    Thank you Deputy Hill for these pictures and for your measurements which clearly conflict with what Warcup told ILM. The cellar area that you were in is obviously not the only cellar area under HDLG and repeated work over the years has changed the structure of those areas.

    As to the bath - there are many pictures of it on the net. It was probably originally an animal trough of some kind way back in the history of the building. It looks like a large Rugby bath and is big enough to fit several children. In the sixties all these cellars were accessible (if the Superintendant didn't catch you) and you could walk in most of these areas without bending. As well as the bath there was a big furnace down there too.There were also other punishment rooms at the back of the building and I believe a new block was used for this too. Kids were put in solitary there and I believe some claim this happened in the cellars too.

    If these people are telling the truth (and I believe they are) I am sure the police who interviewed them believed what they said. Most of the people who did this to them are dead now but they still need to be named and shamed. Those abusers who are still alive need to be brought to trial too so these victims can finally have some form of closure.Some people have suffered for decades - enough is enough! Let's have some action now

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  13. Not forgetting either VFC that in the book Nobody Claim by a former inmate of Haut de la Garenne, cellars are mentioned on various occasions used as places of punishment.

    It is also stated in the book that staff held 'parties' in the cellars. I shudder to think what kind of parties, but I also find it hard to comprehend 'parties' being held in voids unless all the 'party-goers' were dwarves!

    And yes Anonymous - it is very sad. Sad for the victims and sad because Warcup and Co have misled us. Why?

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  14. Sorry, just to correct my previous post the book is called Nobody Came not Claim.

    It's been a long day!

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  15. Jill Gracia wrote "I also find it hard to comprehend 'parties' being held in voids unless all the 'party-goers' were dwarves!"

    Jill -as you will see from what I have written above - at the time when "Nobody Came" was set there was plenty of room in some parts of the cellar and other basement areas for a party for full-sized adults.

    Lorna

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  16. Alleged victims? That isn't Frank Walker posting is it? He was the one who ordered me to stop referring to 'the victims' as no one had been convicted yet. He obviously had pre-arranged things. Lenny Harper

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  17. Let me make it clear for all. There was a bath down there, and we had allegations concerning it, including rape and forced abortion. The dogs reacted in the area of the bath and inside it. Bedfordshire Police forensic experts tested it for blood and the tests were positive, yet Warcup and Gradwell said it was not blood. The victims did NOT make it up. Out of the several hundred who came forward we felt that 3 or 4 were perhaps not telling the truth. they were easy to spot. The furnace was in the other wing and the archaeologists were of the view that the teeth and bones were there until they had to be moved as a new heating system was being installed. They were then moved to the cellar area and deliberately buried. This was the view of the forensic archaeologist, not mine. His evidence is hard to argue with and no one has ever come up with an alternative. Let me say once again. The victims were telling the truth. My colleagues and I had many years experience in sorting truth from lies. It was not the victims who were lying. What Gradwell and Warcup (despite his later plea of non involvement in the row between Gradwell and myself) were saying, without any doubt, is that the victims were telling lies and that we were taken in. This is rubbish. There were terrible crimes committed down there, at the very least, indecent assaults and rapes. We will perhaps never know if there was worse. What we do know is that there were the remains of children there, no adults, just children, and that these remains had been burnt and deliberately concealed. Why? Why also would certain Jersey politicians and law officers try and deny that in the desperate and dishonest manner we have seen? Why did Frank Walker, Andrew Lewis, and Diane Simon remain silent when they knew that Warcup and Gradwell were at best mistaken when they said that it was not possible for an adult to stand up in the cellars? Why did they tell the Met that we searched HDLG on the word of a few unreliable disturbed people with criminal records. The public in Jersey now have to make their mind up. I hope Stuart Syvret and Bob Hill (when he does stand again) are returned with huge majorities. Lenny Harper

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  18. HI VFC

    Top Post

    I remember listening to the lunch time phone in a while back and a caretaker phoned in and told chris rayner how he went into the cellars through a trapdoor he said there were a lot of bones but they looked like animal bone.

    Now this was just before he handed the building over to the bergerac crew. This statement is confirmation that their were cellars.

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE

    rs

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  19. The superintendent, Colin Tilbrook, and this particular member of staff made up Kevin’s reception committee at Haut de la Garenne, on the Friday he recalls arriving. They told him what a bad person he was. He was bad news and would need cleaning up. He was dragged down to the cellar, pulled along by his hair and ears, and punched and kicked. The route to the cellar, then, was out the main entrance at the front of the building, round the side, back in through the double doors – the area now covered for the forensic digging – and down the stairs to the vaults.

    Kevin was put in the cellar straight ahead of him. There was a large bath in there. He was stripped naked and made to get into the bath, which was already filled with cold water. When the man with the torch left, locking the door behind him, Kevin was trapped in darkness for the whole weekend.

    This became a pattern. The perpetual darkness was barely tolerable. The same man would return late on a Sunday and open the door, all normal, like nothing had happened. Come on, off you go. That really got to Kevin. It was just too surreal.

    Alas, this was not the whole story. When Kevin was naked and bathed, the man would touch Kevin’s genitals while masturbating himself to a climax. When he had finished, he would kiss and be affectionate with Kevin, telling him what a good boy, a nice boy, he was. This, too, the contradictory behaviour, was difficult for Kevin to comprehend.

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  20. Lenny.

    You said "Why did Frank Walker, Andrew Lewis, and Diane Simon remain silent when they knew that Warcup and Gradwell were at best mistaken when they said that it was not possible for an adult to stand up in the cellars?"

    Are you saying that the "accredited" journalist Diane Simon, Former Chief Minister Frank Walker and former Home Affairs Minister Andrew Lewis have been to the "cellars" and could have confirmed that grown adults were able to stand up in them?

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  21. Thank you Carrie for this LINK It is extremely informative and clearly states “A room in the cellar, 12ft square and 7ft high”. The link is a "must read".

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  22. Yes. All three were taken around HDLG by me. Lewis and Walker had the full 'official' tour which included seeing my team at work in the cellars and speaking to them. Walker also brought his wife for the tour. I pointed out to them whee we had found the teeth and bones and where the human hair had been found at the roughly cut trap door into the cellar. They also had a viewing of the dogs at work and we set up a scenario for them with specks of blood which the dogs then found. All in all they expressed admiration for the team's efforts and clearly saw them working in the cellars, making no comment about height. It was clear to them that the height was greater than three feet. That was before the claims of Warcup and Gradwell of course. Diane Simon had a shorter tour but she clearly saw the cellars and of course when Robert Hall of the BBC did his programme the height of the cellars was there for all to see. Memories are funny things!!Lenny Harper

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  23. Lenny Harper
    Thankyou so much for that information about the cellars.I also want to thank you for backing up my sincere belief that you could tell who was telling the truth and that you did believe those victims who disclosed serious abuse in those vile cellars.

    Carrie
    Thank you for that link as I was looking for it. I can't believe that Gradwell and Warcup could have disregarded these facts so completely. Admittedly the bath in the diagram looks like a normal domestic bathtub Having seen it with my own eyes many years ago I know it was very different but other than that it is all pretty clear.

    Relatives and friends of mine have told me that this is the most transparent and farcical cover-up they have ever come across.

    Lorna

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  24. Oh - and another mistake in the link Carrie posted was that the controversial piece of skull was found at the back of the building above the main cellar area. I believe it was actually found at the front of the building by the old dining room area but I may be wrong. (I clearly remember the old furnace but can't place exactly where it was)

    Lorna

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  25. VFC

    This is from warcup and gradwells press release on the 12th november 2008

    The Cellars
    These are floor voids. They are not cellars, and it is impossible for a grown person to stand up straight in the floor voids under Haut de la Garenne.

    Now this is looking like a straight forward lie

    Check this out from the same statement concerning the teeth.

    Teeth
    There are 65 teeth found in the floor voids and 1 elsewhere. They are milk teeth coming from at least 10 people - up to a maximum of 65 people. Around 45 of the teeth originate from children aged 9 to 12 yrs and 20 from the range 6 to 8 years.
    There is wear on some of the teeth; these teeth generally have the appearance of being shed naturally.
    It is possible for more tests to be done on the teeth to clarify age and other factors.

    Look at the wording- these teeth generally have the appearance of being shed naturally

    Lenny is that how it works you find a tooth hold it up and say the above or do you consider runnuong some tests on them.

    There is probably more in the those two bits to have warcup suspended than they had on power in 2008

    rs

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  26. SOME of the teeth COULD have come out naturally. TWO Odentologists, one from jersey and one from the UK, said that some could not have come out naturally. This supported the findings of our experts who would come and give evidence at a public enquiry as I would. Let us hope that the promise to hold an independent enquiry untainted by the former AG's cronies is honoured. Lenny Harper

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  27. Lenny.

    Which is the point I made in the main posting, it's what ISN'T in the press release that's just as important as what IS.

    It is, as far as I am aware and stand to be corrected, EVIDENCED FACTS that teeth were found with root attached and could not have been shed, naturally, i.e. before death.

    By the way, don't hold your breath on any "independent" enquiry ever being set up!!

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  28. VFC

    Why would there be a bath under a floor void?

    Again from the warcup/gradwell press release

    The Bath and blood stains:
    This bath in the under floor voids has no water supply and has not been used as a bath since the 1920’s when a brick pillar was constructed within it. During the search a specialist search dog reacted to the bath and a presumptive test indicated positive for blood in a minute area of the bath. Following detailed forensic microscopic examination no blood has been found. There is nothing suspicious about the bath and no indication this bath has been used in the commission of any offences.

    So lenny this totally contradicts your comment above just what is going on here.

    Surely the officers who worked on the investigation must be devastated that all their hard work has been ridiculed by these two cops its not like you did it all on your own, are they saying that all the investigators were rubbish?

    We will find the truth

    rs

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  29. From the Gradwell and Warcup press statement.

    "It is possible for more tests to be done on the teeth to clarify age and other factors."

    OK then have the tests been done, and if not, why not?

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  30. This is so insane! Syvret, Harper, Power...didn't make this stuff up. What more do people need in terms of evidence?

    I can't believe people haven't taken to the streets and demanded a full accounting from the government.

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  31. More to the point VFC 'where are those teeth now' knowing the history of ripping up, shredding evidence, one supposes the teeth are now in the recycling centre - lost in a mound of toxic ash!!!!!

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  32. From the Gradwell/Warcup statement: "This bath in the under floor voids has no water supply and has not been used as a bath since the 1920’s when a brick pillar was constructed within it."

    The bath may have no water supply but it could easliy have been filled with cold water as some victims have claimed. You could access the cellar from outside and a hosepipe from the garden would do it.

    As to the pillar in the bath I would love to know where they got the evidence that it was put there in the 1920's. If you look at the picture of the bath on "Cover-up Jersey's" link you will see that there are several pillars there and they appear to be supporting the floorboards. I may be wrong but I suspect these pillars may have been constructed later than that - possibly in the late 60's or 70's when the new floors went down. I don't remember that pillar in the bath but as Lenny says, memory can be a funny thing.

    Either way I smell more lies.

    Lorna

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  33. Good question, "where are the teeth"? If I remember correctly the alleged skull fragment changed weight, colour and size and then just dissapeared!

    Didn't Warcup also admit to destroying evidence?

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  34. I am not sure which one of them Weirdcop or his side-kick stated that evidence had been destroyed.

    It never ceases to amaze me that statement was made. I believe it is unlawful to dispose of evidence that has been gathered by the Police. I am very surprised that they have not been taken to task. I wonder what the DPP would say if any UK Police Authority made a similar statement. I believe it is a dismissable offence, but hey ho on Fantasy Island where money matters more than people, where offenders are assessed by their social standing rather than their alledged crimes who is surprised. Perhaps your goodself or Rico could look into this offence!!!! Incidently Lenny you may have the answer.

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  35. Jon H (the real one)26 April 2010 at 13:00

    Neil, I just listened to your comments on the phone-in.

    For once I agree, I think Bridget should knock her comments about Haut de la Garenne on the head because its just irritating the victims and it cannot be doing their blood pressure any good. If Deputy Bob Hill wants to go up to Haut de la Garenne with a tape measure thats up to him. Why anybody can be bothered about it I really do not know.

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  36. I have only recently become aware of the horrors that took place. I read a book by Robbie Garner, and it broke my heart! But like all politicians and people in power, because they did not pay enough attention, they refuse to take the blame! Refused as guardians of our nation, to accept that they were to busy being power hungry to care about the little people of the world.

    I hope that those responsible for ruining so many lives, and the powers that be, who turned a blind eye or took part in the abuse gets exposed and humiliated for the entire world to see!

    I am from South Africa, and the abuse of our woman and children is rife, and it is a battle we should all fight, to eliminate, expose and punish the perpetrators of innocence!

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  37. oh that Robbie Garner book again in which he states that he was led along a corridor to a room where he was then abused.
    The under floor height at that part of the building varies due to the building having been constructed on sloping ground. Now i dont know the depth of those voids but i suspect that very,very little measures 7ft.
    'Robbie Garner' would have you believe that there was also a standard height corridor as well !
    At the time that the bath was installed the floor level was higher,but for reasons unknown it was lowered. This was before i was there in the mid fifties.The opposite wing of the building retains its original floor level under which was the gardeners storeroom.I recall it to this day,a dark dingy room, carefully arranged potato barrels surrounding the gardeners chair....Anyway, whatever the height,it would appear that abuse did take place, and under both wings.

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