Friday, 5 November 2010

Who is the real Chief Minister? (PART 1)

In this first of a series asking “who is the real Chief Minister?” I re-produce a quite staggering exchange taken from Hansard in Feb 09. It should be said that the Former Chief Police Officer Graham Power QPM is on record as saying that the typed notes of his suspension are not an entirely accurate reflection of what was said at the suspension meeting.

Terry Le Sueur appears extremely defensive of his Chief Executive Officer Bill Ogley (The Real Chief Minster?) as will become more apparent during this series, and is in no hurry to admit that the only people to have seen the handwritten notes of Bill Ogley, before he (Bill Ogley) destroyed them, were Ogley himself and Andrew Lewis, the then Home Affairs Minister. Graham Power QPM who was being suspended (possibly illegally) was not shown the notes so could not have signed them off.........All perfectly reasonable according to our Chief Minister.

The Deputy Bailiff:

There were 2 questions put to the bottom of the list because Deputy Pitman was detained, so Deputy would you like to put question 4?

4.15 Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Chief Minister regarding an inquiry into the suspension of the Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police:

I would like to thank the House for its understanding in moving the questions and also thank my wife for carrying me up Bonne Nuit Hill. In the light of allegations of evidence relating to the suspension of the Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police being destroyed by the States Chief Executive Officer, will the Chief Minister immediately implement a full independent inquiry and suspend the Chief Executive Officer until such an inquiry is completed?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

The short answer is no. I do not consider it necessary to implement a full independent inquiry into the issue referred to in the question. The handwritten notes taken at the meeting in question were subsequently used to produce a typed document which was then countersigned by the former Home Affairs Minister and distributed to all 3 persons who had been present at the meeting. The handwritten notes were subsequently destroyed. This is perfectly normal procedure in relation to employee disciplinary or grievance hearings in the public sector.

4.15.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:

With due respect, in making such replies and in issuing statements about mischief-making, does the Chief Minister not accept that he really misjudges the seriousness with which the public view this and, in fact, it will just be viewed as a smokescreen for him perhaps not possessing the political testicular fortitude for suspending the C.O. (Chief Officer).

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

No, I do not believe I do misjudge the public and I believe that if the public were aware of the facts, as I have just outlined them, they would not be at all concerned.

4.15.2 The Deputy of St. Martin:

I heard the Chief Minister say that the typed document was signed by obviously the Chief Officer and also by the Minister and passed on to the 3 people involved. But was the draft signed by the third person involved? In other words, did the third person agree with what had been typed?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

In view of the fact that the matter is still under consideration from a disciplinary point of view, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the reaction of the suspended Chief Officer.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I would have thought it was quite a straightforward question. Was it signed or was it not?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

I have nothing to add to my previous answer.

4.15.3 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:

The Chief Minister said that it is perfectly normal procedure when conducting disciplinary hearings to circulate notes from typewritten drafts from handwritten drafts and then to destroy the notes before the typewritten minutes are agreed; does he stand by that statement? Is he not aware that the normal procedure is to check that all parties have agreed that the minutes represent a fair comment?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

I rephrase that that is the procedure which is currently adopted throughout the States in regard to disciplinary proceedings. I am happy to review those and agree that those procedures need to be reviewed on a regular basis. If they require updating they will be but certainly what was carried out here is in compliance with the normal procedures currently in force.

4.15.4 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Could the Chief Minister circulate to Members the procedures that are written that outline this practice please so that we can establish for our own minds what has been written down and what is the practice and what is the policy? Can he also let us know at what time that was agreed, how was it agreed, where it was agreed, who drew them up, so we can see where the policy exists in writing that this is the common practice?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

Practice evolves over a period of time. I shall endeavour to find out what is available in written form to submit to Members. I cannot guarantee at this stage how comprehensive that would be.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Are there no guidelines?

4.15.5 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Can I ask the Chief Minister, when the former Minister for Home Affairs signed the written document that he referred to, did he also have sight at the same time the handwritten notes? Was he comparing the handwritten notes with what was on the typewritten notes?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

I cannot speak for the former Minister but I believe that was the case.

4.15.6 The Deputy of St. John:

I refer back to a yes or no answer; did the 3 people concerned all sign the document?

The Deputy Bailiff:

That has already been asked, Deputy.

The Deputy of St. John:

It was not answered, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff:

It is up to the Chief Minister whether he wants to change his answer.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

The document was signed by the Chief Executive and the Minister for Home Affairs, it was not signed and it would not be expected to be signed by the suspended Chief Officer.

4.15.7 Senator S. Syvret:

In a matter of such gravity as the suspension of the Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police Force, really does the Chief Minister not find it extraordinary that such a piece of evidence as the contemporaneous handwritten notes was destroyed, especially as I have learnt in the course of the last 2 years that one of the very first things the police want and require on an evidential basis are the handwritten notes of any meetings or discussions that have taken place? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

I do not find it extraordinary at all. I agree a full record of what happened at the meeting was required and is required and is available in identical form and, you would think, far more of use than some illegible ... I must not cast doubt on people’s handwriting, but some more illegible handwritten form. (End Hansard)

Terry, surely this sort of stuff has to emabarrass you? How can the public have confidence in you, or the Civil Service, after reading this?.....................................with plenty more similar stuff to come.


  1. Perhaps the CM can now answer the question as to;

    Did the third person agree with what had been typed?


    In view of the fact that the matter is still under consideration from a disciplinary point of view, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the reaction of the suspended Chief Officer.

    Is no longer the case.

  2. This is just pure gold from the chief minister.
    "Senator T.A. Le Sueur:

    The document was signed by the Chief Executive and the Minister for Home Affairs, it was not signed and it would not be expected to be signed by the suspended Chief Officer".

  3. vfc
    why o why keep going over this nothing will come of it you know it i know it after what has gone on in the states this week nothing is going to happen we have on the hole no states members with balls to do anything ,i hope mr syvret will stand again next year as it stands now tls and hes quisling,s will and do have there way no matter what. talking is good but it is not working .

  4. Martin.

    I have to disagree with you about States Members not having the balls. There are some good States Members who are trying to get the truth out most notably Bob Hill. Trevor Pitman, Daniel Wimberley, Simon Crowcroft, Mike Higgins, there are more.

    You ask who oh why do I carry on? That's simple I am frightened and I mean truly frightened of what our government, Civil Service and judicial system are capable of. Do you expect me to do nothing? That in my mind, would make me as bad as the child abusers and people who cover up for them.

    For evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing (or something similar)

  5. dear vfc
    im not saying do nothing but do something different try something new we know talking dose not work they just dont what to know do you think they give a sh*t what we or anyone thinks as they say sometimes action,s speak louder then words. and yes there are some good states members but the thing is there is not enougth is there?there will come a time when we have no voice what then?

  6. Why oh why do we have to tolerate this most exasperating, negative, intransigent man as our Chief Minister?

    He is an utter disgrace.

    As per usual out of 9 questions asked here 8 of them contain the words no, do not, nothing (to add),
    cannot (guarantee), would not, on more than one occasion. Has this man never learnt the word yes?

    Martin, I can only agree with VFC about other politicians who have the courage to question and challenge, and furthermore if people like VFC did not pursue these issues that would be playing right into the hands of those who would wish that eventually it will all be forgotten and go away.

    Not any more, not any more.

  7. Martin.

    I am sorry that I don’t have all the answers. I’m merely a parent of two children that I have come to learn need protecting from this government.

    We have had rally’s and demonstrations with more to come. We (Team Voice) have made some powerful inside contacts and gained the trust of some very influential people at the heart of our government/Civil Service.

    Personally I would love to stop Blogging and never look at a computer again. But as things stand that is not an option. Things are not going to change overnight but I owe it to my children, and the survivors of despicable Child Abuse to do what I can with what very little resources I have.

    That might not be enough for some people, indeed it’s not enough for me, but it’s all I can do.

  8. Hi Martin - sorry I clicked on my last comment before I saw your further post.

    The ordinary man and woman DOES have a voice, we all have a voice. Namely we have the right to vote, and if we vote for the right people we get the right voices to speak for us. Don't forget there are elections in 12 months time, so tell all your friends and family to get out there, attend some hustings and use what is democratically yours to give a government we deserve, not one we don't.

    This is the starting point and you can help to make the changes.

  9. dear vfc AND JILL

    it is not that i doint care what happins to children i was one and i know talking dose not allways work i talked for 20 years still i talk still nothing happins so as i said atcion may be the answer jill i doint know what clicked is i just feel something more needs to be done before tls and hes mates go two far there must be something
    we the pepole can do

  10. Martin.

    The longest walk in history started with a single step. Like Jill has said, get to the hustings, encourage your friends to vote and go to hustings, contact your Deputy/Constable, spread the word about the Blogs. All these things mount up and the more people that get involved, the more the likes of TLS and his puppet masters will have to take notice.

  11. DEAR VFC.
    my deputy is the minister for ss how far do you think ill get there the man is a moreron. i do belive vfc is doing a great job and i hope you keep doing it as i said before there has to be more we can do. if there is any way i can help i will i have nothing to lose .

  12. A comment here about voting to ensure changes come about has got me thinking.

    I recall a conversation I had at a voting station at the last by election for the position of senator.

    Talking to a member of the election staff made me realise that there is no anonymity when it comes to voting. For whom you vote for can be traced. The quote "oh but it doesn't happen" didn't and hasn't quelled one's suspicions.

    Perhaps we need to look at reforming the voting procedure - not that one is suspecting at all of any voting irregularities considering that only the very best candidates get duly elected into the House ...

    The Beano is not the Rag

  13. Martin - as the saying goes 'Rome wasn't built in a day', and sadly change won't happen overnight.

    You are being listened to now, by expressing your thoughts and feelings on this blog to people who feel exactly the same way as you do. Let that give you a bit of faith and courage because you are not alone in all this. Indeed you may yourself feel that being able to contribute to this blog is a good outlet for what you feel as it is for us all.

    Nothing is going to happen overnight, but it must make you feel good to know you are not alone in your sentiments. Every single person counts and is invaluable.

  14. Yes it's disgusting, enraging, hurtful, very VERY ambarrassing, BUT.......'Political Testicular Fortitude' is the statement of the decade!

    Thank you Mr Pitman.

  15. TLS has been too stupid to realise that he is the one who is dragging this on and on, due to rarely ever answering the actual question posed with sufficient detail. Therefore, next sitting, more questions and so on and so on. What a clown, next job for him, working in a circus, as he likes to go around in circles.

  16. Martin

    I share your frustrations as I also believe things need to be turned up a notch, or six.

    What we must remember though is to keep plugging away in the background as we are. If you stop for the slightest rest, you fall behind, and that sets you back. Talking is good, every time the likes of TLS or ILM open their mouths, they give us more ammunition, it's gold dust, really it is!

    I have only seen you comment fairly recently, so you are another on board. Unfortunately, matters like this will take years to play out, not weeks or months I'm afraid.

    The big focus now should be on the next elections. We must put all this knowledge into a concise brochure that is easily read and understood. Then distribute it to every household in Jersey, even if we have to do it ourselves.

    There is no reason why we cannot set up a fund now, to deal with this well in advance of the forthcoming elections. There are many rich, and poor people on the island who despise what our Government has done, I can see them donating in a minute.

    Time is on our side, let us use it wisely.

  17. Graham Power did not sign any suspension notes as he was not given them nor did he see them.
    Mysteriously destroyed. Therefore impossible to sign any.

    Graham Power deserved equal respect at that time as would be given to any other public employees or Chief executive and Mr. Le Sueur as Chief Minister should give equal respect to all parties.

    I believe first and foremost States Members have a duty to their electorate which is equal to that they would give to the Chief Executive.

    States Members should not be intimidated from Mr. Le Sueur by a perceived entitlement to more respect for his Chief Executive from ministers than that of their duty to the electorate in being responsible and courteous.

    Over to you Mr Le Sueur.

  18. I believe the minister for SS is now living in St Ouen. You dont have to live in a parish to be its deputy, but it makes thing harder. Or perhaps he will stand for deputy in his new home against Mr Reed. More likely you have spotted a first shoe in for Senator next time round.

  19. Hi VFC.
    Is there a recording of that states siting!

  20. Re; "Hi VFC.
    Is there a recording of that states siting!"

    I will try and find out.

  21. "Martin says why keep going on about this subject"
    Martin thats what the establishment want hoping it will go away but thanks to the politicians with "bottle" i for one hope they don't give up & give them what they want for this all to go away.

  22. I hope the ministers do keep on with their questions and not allow themselves be intimidated.

    Mr. Le Sueur has still not informed the public why Graham Power was suspended and should be made to give answers and facts.

  23. Jep article page 4th November 2010
    Answer to question 4
    ''The States Chief executive deserves the same respect as other States employees and even more respect. He is in charge of the whole civil service, and has respect for other States employees.''

  24. Sorry I missed the end of Mr. Le Sueurs quote in answer to question 4.

    ''The States Chief executive deserves the same respect as other States employees, and even more respect. He is in charge of the whole civil service, and has respect for other States employees. Equally, States Members have a Particular duty of responsibility and courtesy to him.''

    Isn't respect a two way street. ?

  25. Respect is earned not deserved.

  26. "Is there a recording of that states sitting."

    Unfortunately not that I can find. A question was also asked why TLS has never explained why Graham Power QPM was suspended.

    He was suspended on a letter from David Warcup, I have heard rumour that the letter will be making its way online.......Should make for VERY interesting reading!

  27. Hi VFC.

    Sorry I can't go back that far.
    I can go back to the 9/4/09.
    I so which I could go back to 10/08/08. but I lost them !